Cryptocopia Hangout #1 – AMA Transcript with Waves and Incent

TRYTOSTOPME: “All right, let’s begin. So, welcome everyone to our first official Cryptocopia hangout. Cryptocopia is more or less a community of like-minded individuals who aren’t completely on the boat with one coin more or less…

TRYTOSTOPME: “All right, let’s begin. So, welcome everyone to our first official Cryptocopia hangout. Cryptocopia is more or less a community of like-minded individuals who aren’t completely on the boat with one coin more or less…We’re more of a community that tries to come together and look for the facts behind a lot of drama, in a lot of these coins, and look for the prospective value in a coin’s development. Behind our administrator Myco on the other screen you can see the link to our slack address. You can go there for free open registration.”

“Today for our first hangout, we have with us Rob Wilson and Sasha Ivanov who will join us later. And I will hand over the mic to Myco.”

MYCO: “Thanks for the intro. So, the URL is cryptocopia.herokuapp.com. That will let you sign up to get an invite for our slack where you can talk about whatever coins you’re interested in, and get trading advice.”

“So Rob, if I don’t know what incent is, or how it differs from other cryptocurrencies, can you give us a brief overview of what kind of space you’re in and what you’re trying to accomplish?”

ROB WILSON (INCENT CEO): “Good morning lads. What is Incent? Incent is both a token – a crypto currency – and also the suite of applications that make that currency whole; allow it to do its job. Specifically Incent is all about doing loyalty rewards better… Providing a better more valuable reward to the consumer as a reward for their custom, at way less cost to the merchant. That is, from a tactical perspective, that is what Incent is about. But if we get it right, the grand strategic purpose of Incent is quite literally to get mainstream commerce paying to put crypto into the pockets, or wallets, of mainstream consumers by solving a business problem that we perceive to be prevalent in the market.”

MYCO: “So now, in a previous … I’ve gotten rewards points and they’ll have a website you can go to redeem your reward points. That website spans different businesses, they can give rewards. Obviously one of the key innovations of Incent is that you are decentralizing that rather than it being one company. What kind of benefits do you get from decentralization?”

ROB WILSON: “Well from the merchants’ point of view it gives them choice. There are merchants or commercial entities that are precious about brand and restriction. That’s right; that’s how they want to play. For others, joining in a coalition would make a lot more sense. We can provide any merchant operator with that functionality without stepping (in their way). In the meantime, the central premise of Incent attacks the premise upon which traditional loyalty is built, which is essentially restrictive in its nature. ‘I will give you this reward, but it is only redeemable if you redeem it how, when, or until I say you can.’ What blockchain allows us to do is turn that on its head and say no. The value of this reward is valuable in and of itself because of its portability, convertibility, and its appreciating nature. ‘That’s why you will come back to me because you want more of it.’”

[Sasha explains that he is in a café as he couldn’t take the meeting back at home.]

MYCO: “… So Sasha, could you give us a quick overview… If I’m someone who doesn’t know what Waves is compared to Ethereum or any other coin… give us a quick overview of how Waves is different.”

SASHA (WAVESPLATFORM CEO): “So, as you probably know, Waves is about the business application of blockchain technology. (It’s) Focused on the most useful applications like value transfer, fiat transfer, and crowdfunding. It’s a versatile platform, but we are focused on these aspects, and we are pushing them hard. We will have fiat transfer, and crowdfunding campaigns on our platform. So Incent is one of the first programs that is going to have their campaign on Waves. We are supporting them and we are trying to help them succeed. When we have fiat start-ups, start-ups will be able to crowdfund for dollars or Euros, and that will turn us into a full-fledged blockchain kickstarter. So, Waves is an open blockchain platform focused on business applications, in general… and value transfer, and crowdfunding in particular.”

MYCO: “So I think Rob’s Incent ICO is starting in a week or so, in the beginning of October. Is that right?”

ROB WILSON: “That is right.”

MYCO: “That is going to, in some way, be performed on the Wavesplatform. Is that right?”

ROB WILSON: “We will actually be hosting the ICO on the incentloyalty.com website. Sasha’s team has assisted us in putting that functionality together.”

MYCO: “So is that functionality ready to go Sasha or are you still working towards that at this time?”

SASHA: “Actually, they will be able to integrate our API on their own I think. Of course we can account for their wishes, and the functionality they need to have, but any program that uses Waves will be able to integrate the token on their own. We just work tightly with Incent so we weed out all the bugs…”

MYCO: “Will people be able to use fiat to invest right away with Incent or will it be crypto only?”

ROB & SASHA: “Crypto only.”

SASHA: “We have several payment systems that are going to work with us as soon as we have custom tokens. They will be providing fiat transfer, and will be the market makers for the dollar and Euro. We will have fiat as soon as we have custom tokens. It’s about a month’s time.”

MYCO: “Do you need to have a company, like, if you want to have US fiat dollars to help crowdfund… I think you need some company in the US that is doing all the regulatory things that can take US dollars and turn them into Bitcoins. Something like a Coinbase like entity…”

SASHA: “We need to be really compliant here. We are working with a couple of companies that have licenses and they can really provide these features. They’re doing it now; they’re payment systems that are actually working now. We will have a UK company probably and some others. Different companies will be covering different currencies. We’ll have a company for Euro, and another for the dollar. More companies will be coming to our ecosystem, more gateways. It is totally possible that we will have several companies for gateways for the dollar, or Euro, or Yuan. But we are working with a few companies that are going to be provide us with this functionality as soon as we have custom tokens. So, we will have the dollar and Euro within a couple of months. After that, anyone will be able to crowdfund for fiat on the blockchain. It has never happened before, and it could be pretty big I think… This will allow start-ups to crowdfund for fiat, but it’s like trustless fiat as it’s still on the blockchain. They don’t need to mess with cryptocurrency conversions. They can crowdfund directly in fiat tokens.”

MYCO: “Can they escrow the money that they’ve collected through their crowdfund so that they’ve only got access to it under a certain scenario?”

SASHA: “Yes absolutely. You have all the advantages of blockchain, but at the same time it’s backed by fiat. You can do the same escrow thing that you do with Bitcoin for example. We will also have multi-signature and stuff like that. Of course, it won’t be fully trustless because their have to be some gateways that provide some conversions into bank transfers… As long as it’s on the blockchain, it’s trustless. When you try to do a bank transfer, it stops being trustless, but as long as it’s on the blockchain, you can use the same functionality you use with Bitcoin.”

TRYTOSTOPME: “Merging into the finer details with some of the Incent related stuff. When you create an asset on the Waves platform, how is that quantified? Is it made up of a Waves token? … It’s kind of an open-ended question really. So, asset creation on Waves… when the asset is created, will that be made from a Waves token?”

SASHA: “Do you mean crowdfunding tokens, or the tokens that are used for the loyalty program?”

TRYTOSTOPME: “The ones for INCENT particularly.”

SASHA: “They’re going to have crowdfunding tokens, and they will also be loyalty tokens. At the moment they won’t issue any tokens. As soon as they ICO campaign is over, they will issue all the tokens and distribute them among the investors. It will be easy. It’s just one API call. You execute the call and you have the tokens. You execute another call and you distribute the tokens among all the investors.”

MYCO: “Is it like NXT where you have an asset or a currency that you can kind of transfer on the NXT blockchain?”

SASHA: “Yea, absolutely. Waves is inspired by NXT in a way. I’ve been heavily involved in NXT for a while, for a year. I think it is, and could have been a very promising platform but they have some other focus now. They are creating the ARDOR system. I wish them well, and I think they can succeed, but I think what we need is to focus on custom token creation operations. If you can easily issue your own token on the blockchain, it’s a big thing actually. You can’t do that easily now; you don’t have a solution for this. You have Bitshares, but it is not really working at the moment. It’s pretty complicated to issue your own token. You have NXT, but it’s also not very easy to comprehend how it works. So, at the moment, you just don’t have this functionality, which allows you to issue your own token on the blockchain. You can issue a token on Counterparty, but it takes 10 minutes to transfer it to another person, which is pretty useless. If you have some solution that allows you to issue your token, easily, like in a couple minutes, you are good to go… we just don’t have it (yet). Ethereum is much more than that; they have a different approach. They use contracts to issue tokens, so they are heavily limited regarding scalability. It’s not about tokens, it’s about smart contracts (what they offer). We want to offer custom token creation operations and you can do lots of things with custom tokens. You can peg them to fiat. You can use them as securities. You can use them as voting tokens. As bonds… many things. A whole world of new applications is open. I think some blockchain platform needs to focus specifically on custom token creation, so that is what we are going to do.”

MYCO: “So it seems like when you crowdfund something on Kickstarter… if you’re targeting the non-crypto crowd which it seems that you want to mix that in your market… how user friendly that system is… the website aspect of buying it, you can kind of simplify it by making it US dollars. Then you have the problem of how they’re going to hold the token and secure them. This is sometimes a problem for even intelligent crypto people who have been around a while. Do you have, on your Waves client, some way to hide these kinds of details?”

SASHA: “We are going to do it as simple as possible. Our main client is just a chrome plugin. Soon we will have all the functionality related to token transfer and creation within this plugin. Everything you need to do to issue your token is, go to Google app store and install the plugin. In a few clicks, you will have as many tokens as you need. The lite client doesn’t need to download the blockchain. It is very easy to launch and start using. It takes 15 seconds to issue your own token. With all the security of this thing, ok, it is like the usual security at this stage. If someone steals your private key, you have a problem, and you are screwed. BUT, we also plan to have a 2FA system on the blockchain. We are working with some cryptographers on this. It’s not a major focus right now, as we need to launch the tokens. As soon as we have tokens, we will launch the 2FA system. It will allow us to secure transfers with another platform basically, just as you do with Google Authenticator, for example. It can be connected to your phone, or to your email. So, there will be another security layer that can be used to secure your tokens. It will be blockchain based; a decentralized 2FA system.”

MYCO: “Two-factor authentication on the blockchain.”

TRYTOSTOPME: “Sasha, I had a few questions if you wouldn’t mind answering, particularly about Charles Hoskinson. If we’re ok to talk a little about Scorex, how are your relations with Hoskinson?”

SASHA: “We are cool now. There is no animosity between us at the moment. We send emails to one another. Charles wanted to create the Scorex Foundation. As far as I understand he has too many other things on his plate right now. He’s launching another cryptocurrency – some gaming currency – I forget the name actually. He has a meet up now in Ukraine I think. He has all the Scorex developers there and they are launching the currency now. His focus is on something else, and I don’t really know when he plans to start the Scorex Foundation. But, these are the plans we started in June. The plan is to found the Scorex Foundation. IOHK and Wavesplatform will pay for it. 50/50. So we both fund the foundation and it’s an open foundation. There can be other entities that can participate… We are cooperating now. I don’t know how it will develop in the future, but I think it’s ok we will have nothing to really argue about. We are all in the same boat. We had a misunderstanding at launch but I think we are past that now.”

TRYTOSTOPME: “I went through the team directory recently and I noticed someone on there named Ivan S. I did a little research into who just is Ivan S., and it looks like, under his work history, he’s been a very successful IT person at many banks that were very successful. Comment on his position in Waves?”

SASHA: “Yes he is a banking integration specialist. He is currently in the UK working on interacting with banks. We will probably be launching our own payment processor in the UK. So, it will be properly licensed and it can be another gateway for Waves, a major gateway. He’s working with banks and will be providing his expertise for bank integration. He’s been working as a programmer in different banks for 20 years as far as I understand He’s a top-level coder. He’s not very young, but he’s very experienced. He has connections in the UK in the payment world. He wants to start his own company that is going to interact with Waves, and provide the fiat gateway services for Waves.”

TRYTOSTOPME: “Very interesting. So he’s going to be more or less a liquidity provider to a degree…Very good to hear. We can look forward to seeing some of the fiat gateways within a year, you would say?”

SASHA: “No, no; sooner than that. As soon as we have the tokens and the functionality for token creation and transfer, there will be several companies that will be/ are ready to work with us that have already signed some preliminary contracts. They’ll be providing the gateways. It is not a year. It all depends on the functionality of the platform. Organizationally we are fine and we have many companies lined up and waiting for the launch.”

MYCO: “Are those established companies that currently take money in exchange for Bitcoin?”

SASHA: “…Not yet actually. Everybody can do that. I’ll probably be using Coinomat for this because I have this instant cryptocurrency exchange project and I think that I should develop it further. I think it can be a coin gateway for Waves for a while. Later we can cooperate with several exchanges. My idea is to have several exchanges that each have a proper multi signature set-up that secures the whole thing. It can’t be stolen because nobody has the full access to all of the keys. So, for example, one exchange has one multi-sig key, and the other has the second one, and the third one, the last one (and so one and so forth). It’s all secure with a 2 or 3 multi signature scheme. The big exchanges don’t really interact so it’s like it’s decentralized. So this is my plan. We’ll have this set up soon, I think. We are working on this. It’s like multi-gateway on NXT if you know it. It was a major achievement that wasn’t really developed properly, but the idea is good. You’d have several parties that control the Bitcoin transfers and issue some asset when they receive Bitcoin. This asset represents Bitcoin on the blockchain. This is what we have in NXT right now; there’s superBTC. We want to create something similar and we want to have a proper multi signature set up, with several exchanges having their own multi signature server. So, it will be pretty decentralized… at least better than it is now.”

MYCO: “So by having those several exchanges with multi-sig… they’re able to exchange tokens? I’m not sure how these exchanges, being separate and decentralized that way… how does that help exactly?”

SASHA: “It’s a usual multi-signature set up. You can’t send a transfer if you don’t have two signatories. You need to have two signatures to send the transfer. So for example, say you have Bittrex, some other exchange, and some other exchange; everybody has a server. Two of the exchanges need to sign the transfer in order to transfer the Bitcoin. This has more or less the same structure as Waves tokens and all the assets on the Waves blockchain… You won’t be able to send the Waves without a signature from another party. It’s like a usual multi-signature in Bitcoin, done properly. Not like in multi-gateway now, where all 3 multi-gateway servers are controlled by one party in NXT now. We want to change that. We need to have several exchanges who control the servers and who assign transfers. This is our plan. It’s not completely decentralized; it all depends on Bitcoin functionality. What you have in Bitcoin is 2 out of 3 multi-signatures. There are higher schemes like 5 out of 7 and so on. You can’t have like, 90/100 multi-signature in Bitcoin. There are some limits. You have all these specific schemes, but it all depends on Bitcoin functionality. It can’t be fully decentralized at this stage.”

MYCO: “This is so that when these exchanges function as a fiat gateway, they can’t just take the money and run?”

SASHA: “… You can have the multi-signature for tokens, but when you want to get your token out, and you see the bank transfer, you are back in the fiat world. In principle, someone can take your money and run away. It all depends, in the end, on the validity of the gateway. You can have some …(?)… with their bank account, you can be screwed. It’s like that. You need to have some gateway. It’s not like in Bitshares where the value of fiat tokens is pegged dynamically. We don’t believe in that because Bitshares proved that scheme isn’t stable. Their scheme with fiat peg has been broken several times. We need to have a proper entity with proper licenses who is fully compliant to provide market making. And gateway services. Of course the entity can go bankrupt; it can happen. But I think it is a major step forward in comparison to what we have now, in any case. So we should look in that direction and let’s see how it goes. Maybe in the future we can have some kind of proper dynamic peg, and we won’t need to do any marketing making as the token will be pegged in some dynamical way. But, I don’t know how to do it properly yet.”

TRYTOSTOPME: “Speaking on the token front, if I can just revisit Rob for a moment… Some of the community had some questions in particular about the Incent tokens. Now we’ve heard that incent tokens after being issued have a finite lifetime to them, and that at some point they do expire. So my question to you is, ‘What comprises an Incent token?’ Is the Incent token backed by a Wave, or a fiat currency of any type? After they essentially expire, are they considered burned? Is the total supply a fixed supply, or are the expired tokens returned to a pool of some sort?”

ROB WILSON: “We need to be absolutely clear that the central premise of your question is incorrect… An Incent token, is a token… It will be created upon completion of the ICO and distributed to the ICO holders, and they will live forever. No expiry.”

TRYTOSTOPME: “So it’s a typical other asset or token basically.”

ROB WILSON: “Yea absolutely. What is slightly different about the way that we’re managing for circulation is that to provide the primary brokerage service, we need a reserve of Incent to do that. Why do we need a reserve, well from a commercial perspective we need the customer, or indeed the merchant, at settlement to feel that instant gratification. That is why we will always issue or redeem new Incent from our reserve in the first instance, and then reflect that demand. We’ll supply back on the secondary market, which will be on the Waves platform.”

TRYTOSTOPME: “Quick question. How has it been advancing so far? Do you have any sealed deals yet? Do you have any prospective people that have approached you about moving forward with some bigger steps?”

ROB WILSON: “We have a business development effort in the UK, which has surprisingly been picking up interest in the US as well, and also there is an operation here in Australia. So we have a worryingly wide sweep of commercial interest. When I say ‘worry’ I mean that because, following token creation, we need to get about servicing these prospective clients. I need to be very careful that I don’t over commit. So on one end, we have retailers… particularly one of the retailers in Australia who are really keen to use Incent to drive people to use their online operation. In the UK particularly there are two wholesalers who operate internationally and operate B2B, and they love what obviously the international transfer the issue sort of goes with. But to be honest with you what really turns them on is the fact that it’s effectively a cash transaction which they think would appeal to the businesses with which they’re dealing. But by far the most interest is coming from online entities that are targeting the certain demographic, a younger demographic, that have preferred partner type businesses. Where they themselves are performing some sort of brokerage function and joining and connecting with content creators, or to brands. In the case of one particular entity they are an insurance company with brokerages farmer surgeries an retailers. Anyone who is doing business in that way is trying to build and protect an ecosystem. This is where a universal loyalty token comes into it’s own. You can use that token as ‘smart money’ within that ecosystem; it binds it together. That is our focus of effort at the moment. We’re working with a big Australian insurance entity. That, we believe, will be client number one. The reason I like that, is it gets Incent into the hands of a lot of mainstream consumers very quickly. It will force us to develop the panoply (sic) of functionalities within our own application layer that will allow us to ‘shrink-wrap’ and rollout the product to anyone running a less sophisticated business. That is really defining our development path at the moment.”

MYCO: “So it seems like there are two parts to Incent. There are the companies that issue them, and they don’t really want to be involved in the redeeming of them. Then there are the companies that either gives you physical rewards or other incentives when you cash in your Incent tokens. At least that’s what I’m thinking of it. In the traditional model of earning reward points, there’s normally a catalogue of rewards. Is that a similar idea here? That you will have some companies that you partner with that will provide a catalogue of rewards? Or do you stick to just being something you can exchange for cash at certain points.”

ROB WILSON: “Ok, so the traditional loyalty rewards industry, you would go through a lot of accounting to put that kind of structure in place. So you can count what you’re issuing, and make sure you report against your liabilities to the taxman, etcetera. Incent is very different in that; firstly the accounting is outsourced to the blockchain and secondly because the token can be spent beyond the walls or the limits of the issuing merchant. There is no (reward system) like it. Finally, with Bitscan acting as the primary broker, the merchant never has to take possession of or touch the token. It’s completely under the bonnet (under the hood). What’s happening is that when someone makes a purchase, Bitscan is instructed electronically at the point-of-sale to issue and announce the digital value or amount of tokens to that wallet. A wallet is linked by a telephone number, or an email, to that user. Incent goes ahead and issues those tokens to the customer. After the transaction period, Incent steps back into the secondary market to buy back the newly issued Incent back out of the market. So, the secondary market fuels the demand impulse. The idea here is that it is low drag and no risk to the merchant. They literally pay as they go. The only cost to the merchant is that they need to decide how much of their margin they want to pay forward to the customer. From the consumers’ perspective, they’re just going to get a nice surprise, a link to their digital wallet right on their cellphone, hopefully while they’re still standing there at the point of sale. When they open that wallet and see their reward, they will also see what that merchant and other merchants want them to see in terms of other good and services that they can buy. In fact the way the prototype is built, is that every user can be a merchant in their own right. Now whether we restrict that functionality on rollout will depend on whom customer number one is. You can see huge applicability here for the broader Waves community because it would be insignificant technically to integrate or deliver a more sophisticated variant that allows multiple currencies to use. It effectively gives Waves token holders to buy goods and service without needing Incent. There’s huge optionality there. In fact Sasha and I were discussing last night how we can bring, for example, other wallet providers that are working with Waves into this.“

MYCO: “So a scenario here is that someone just bought something at a store, and they’re getting Incent loyalty points here… and they get some link to their email address or whatever… and in their email they get a link to their wallet. They click on that, and (it says) ‘Hey, you have 1000 Incent…’ and then within that wallet they click around to see how they can use that money. Then suddenly, they’re into, potentially, all these other decentralized companies that are exchanging Incent token, and now they’re kind of in the crypto community… starting to put value into other Waves tokens and getting involved with that.”

ROB WILSON: “Ok so now you’re getting it. This is so key in the big problem that crypto has had is that we all love it; we think it’s fantastic. If only everyone else understood how good this was. What we really struggled with is getting the mainstream to see the benefit. I mean, Christ I spent 3 years with Bitscan begging merchants to accept crypto, and telling them how awesome it would be. Bottom line is I wasn’t a business problem that they needed solving. As soon as you go back to commerce and say listen ‘ We think we can help you sell more and increase your customer base,’ it’s a very different conversation. From the consumer’s perspective, we need to keep it really simple. Consumers don’t need to know how many tokens they have; they need to know what the value is, preferably in their local tender. A huge benefit for… Sasha’s not stupid right? He needs to connect Waves to commerce. That’s why we’re working together right? I mean he’s creating the infrastructure layer. Someone had to get out there and knock on doors of real life commerce, and onboard them. Once they do onboard them all their customers come with them. Every single time they transact thereafter, that is a demand impulse on the secondary market We have welcomed them into the wonderful world of crypto in a way that makes sense to them, is seamless to them, and has value to them. That is the prize here.”

TRYTOSTOPME: “Obviously commerce is the most important part of this. At the flip of a switch more or less, anyone can become a merchant. That would be the ecommerce plug-in you were referring to? I feel like that would be simply amazing if you could get that rolled out because using the light-weight framework of what Waves is, together with your idea… Now by giving away a free point-of-sale system that’s easy to use, that issues these tokens, that would be the easiest way to set this up…”

ROB WILSON: “I think the huge difference between our value proposition between us and your average e-commerce marketplace is that you are actually connected to users pockets via their mobile device. All of a sudden, merchants that are paying thousands of dollars to Google every month trying to try and keep pace within the SEO vortex, suddenly they’re communicating with all their consumers in a very different way… Nathan to your question, I know you and I have spoken before about the whole e-commerce piece, and I know you’re keen on that, and it’s absolutely doable. But, so far as I’m concerned, I need to be guided in the first instance by what client number one wants… I think there’s an awful lot of room here for the community to mold this product into how they want to see it used. Another point I wanted to make before I sort of leave-away… I’ve been receiving a lot of questions about, ‘why Waves?’ ‘Why are you partnering with Waves?’ Can you see now? Is it not obvious, this huge synergy between how Sasha thinks about this space, and what Incent needs?”

MYCO: “I can see some synergy there… “

ROB WILSON: “Yes. I need to go in about 4, so if there’s anything else you guys would like to ask me, then we’d need to get that done.”

MYCO: “Well Cryptocopia is our slack channel where we kind of make decisions on how we choose to invest our Bitcoin into other alt coins, talk about prices, and that sort of thing. So, the crowd there, when we’re looking at Incent we’re thinking about what’s going to change compared to when we bought in ICO, compared to after ICO… a few months down the line. So, if we buy at ICO price, what kind of things need to happen for the value to be worth it for us as investors? If you find clients, then we’re probably going to be good on our investment? Any other thoughts on that? Kind of tell us what the value proposition is for us as investors in the ICO.”

ROB WILSON: “Sure it’s a really good question. The confusion can be that… ok, this starts to look interesting once Incent has 100 clients, or 10 clients. We need to be absolutely clear that once client one comes on board, every single time they transact, with every single consumer they transact, that represents a new demand impulse on the secondary market. You are using merchants as the cipher to get to their existing customer base (and getting them to use crypto). That’s what needs to happen. “

MYCO: “When the customer pays out rewards, you said something about, you buy back from the market?”

ROB WILSON: “Correct. Every time they ring the cash register, in whatever way they’re doing that, whether that be online or brick and mortar type scenario, that is a demand impulse, which has to be reflected on the secondary market. Every time that register goes. What Incent absolutely must do is select the client well, work with them, and rollout a robust product well so that there are no hiccups. That is what we need to do. Sasha and I are in regular discussion about how the integration with Waves works. That’s time tabled, and that’s going to have our development teams working together for a period. But Sasha was describing earlier, his team is absolutely focused on making that API infrastructure as simple for commercially focused applications like ourselves, as they possibly can. This is just another reason for this massive synergy, as far as I’m concerned. If you’re in Cryptocopia, or wherever you are, and you’re considering this investment…you’d have to be imagining that we were incapable of bringing the product to market, or one merchant on board, for it to not be a good idea. We’re talking about a merchant demand asset; that’s pretty unusual right? Most assets move to market and we all cross our fingers (hoping) something about that value proposition appeals to somebody somewhere. This is kind of not like that; this is saying customer number one creates an enormous bow wave of volume. You only need to be demonstrating to the market that you can achieve that for customer one. Well, then you can imagine what happens them.”

TRYTOSTOPME: “I can definitely see it as a very cascading effect that can happen very quickly if everything is targeted correctly.”

ROB WILSON: “I think there’s one more point, there’s a light to that, I would like to make before I leave. Investors need to be clear that this is a centralized operation with an outfit wearing the whitest hat that they possibly can. If you’re asking me where the risk is for Incent right now, it’s that we shortcut compliance or we in some way try and lowball and risk our commercial and regulatory credibility. That’s the risk, and that absolutely has to be attended to. That’s one of the reasons we are approaching the community to fund the activity and it has to be done right. We need to stand by the market for Incent as a buyer and seller of last resort – as that prime broker. That’s fundamentally different to many centralized crypto products/projects, but that’s how this has to work. Whether we like it or not commerce simply won’t deal with people that they can’t reach out and touch. That is something that is a concept that buyers of Incent tokens at ICO need to be absolutely clear about.”

MYCO: “All right, thank you for responding to that. I think we’re past the time that you wanted to leave by. “

[All give their good byes.]

MYCO: “Sasha I think that we still have a few questions for you if you still have some more time.”

SASHA: “Sure of course.”

TRYTOSTOPME: “If it’s all right with me asking, I know you haven’t published the paper yet about Leased Proof of Stake (LPOS)… I actually stake Decred, which is DPOS (Delegated Proof of Stake). I’m very familiar with the system; it works very well and I think it’s very cool. So, when we go to talk about LPOS, how is that different from delegated POS.”

SASHA: “You actually don’t vote with your votes, you vote with your money. You just lease your money to the miners. So you vote with your pocket, so to say. You lease the money and the miner is able to use it to secure the network. You are paid some percentage of what he or she has mined. That’s how it works. It’s not really that different from what we have with DPOS. I think that it makes things a little bit easier and simpler. You don’t need to cast any votes to send your funds and they can be used by another party to mine. You won’t need to be 24-7 online to get some transaction fees from the network. So you just lease your funds to the miners to do it professionally, and they will provide this forging service for you, and share the profits. This is the difference between DPOS and LPOS. LPOS, you just lease your money. You don’t have to vote. You just lease your funds to the miners, that’s all. There are some technical differences, but this is the most important thing. I think that it can make the network more secure actually… “

“We have some ideas about (?) – it’s all going to be in the paper. We are focused more on the network launch, so the paper will come a little later. So, after the network is launched properly with public nodes and everything.”

TRYTOSTOPME: “Additionally, I was wondering, when it comes to the graphical user interface, are we going to be seeing… So I look at the NXT dashboard and I feel very overwhelmed. There’s too many buttons, and not enough explanation. How is Waves going to defer from that as it grows in the future?”

SASHA: “I have seen people, intelligent people, trying to interact with NXT for the first time and it was very painful to watch. Intelligent coders could not figure out what it was about. (It’s not very user friendly). So, our focus is on friendliness, on the interface, on the usability. It’s going to be like your usual brokerage interface. So like, when you want to trade some assets, it is going to be like the usual interactive brokerage interface, like, useful and people are accustomed to this. So we’re not going to reinvent the wheel here. So, we’ll use the approach that has been used by online banking and online brokerages. It’ll be the same interface, and people won’t have to know that there is a blockchain under the hood. They’re going to use it just as they would a usual online bank. That’s our message; that’s our pitch. You don’t need to know how it actually works… just use it like you use your online bank. We want to emulate the usual interfaces and reach out to normal Internet users through this.”

TRYTOSTOPME: “A question from a user of Cryptocopia. They are a day trader. They’re very interested in the decentralized exchange. They told me they often have 5 windows open going across all the exchanges. Will there be a way to essentially ‘alt-tab’ between your currency pairs that you are attempting to trade?”

SASHA: “Yes sure. A little bit further down the road we will have a proper… not much different from Poloniex. We should have more or less the same interface there. We will start with a simpler interface, but we will move toward more complicated, and more advanced interfaces like what you can find at current exchanges… or what you can find at Interactive Brokers, Ameritrade, or other major online brokerages. So, we will have this thing with centralized order matching and decentralized settlement. So with centralized matching, the orders will be matched really fast. So, you will have the same (speed) as what you have with current exchanges. Fast execution; you can speculate in a very fast way. You don’t have to wait for like, blockchain confirmations. The settlement is all on the blockchain. You can see that you’re order is matched, and you know that it will be settled in some time, and you’re fine with it. But you don’t send any funds to any central parties. The exchange doesn’t have your funds. It’s a major thing now. After all the hacks, everybody understands that you need to do something; you need to decentralize the current exchange infrastructure. So we are trying to do this. At the same time, you can’t trade completely on the blockchain because the blockchain has some latency. It’s slow. So you can’t have high frequency trading. So we propose to have high frequency trading using centralized servers that only matches orders. They don’t control any funds. You do all of the actual transfers on the blockchain. It is the best of both worlds I think. This approach will be really useful also for normal exchanges in the future, when you transfer all securities on the blockchain, (which) I think will happen sooner or later. So this is an approach that people will be using. You can’t really do without high frequency trading because there are tons of high frequency trading funds and they want to do their business. This is the approach that can be appealing to them. We try to implement this because it has never been done before, and it can be a major advantage on the Wavesplatform.”

TRYTOSTOPME: “One more advantage I wanted to touch on because I think people aren’t aware of, and I do bring it up a lot… you frequently mention that Waves is going to have it’s 100 master nodes. These will be handling the dApps, which allow the lite client to remain lite and have a low load on them… Sandboxing.”

SASHA: “Yes, sandboxing. I can explain. So, actually, we don’t want to replicate what Ethereum is doing. They are doing some things right, but there are other ways to achieve smart contracts on the blockchain. We want to implement a simpler approach. Like, you have some sandboxed applications that can be coded in any language. You don’t need Solidity or some special… you can code it in any language and then run it in a sandbox. You can run it in a decentralized way so single nodes execute the same code, and you can compare the results of the execution and validate. If there is quorum you can see that the code was executed correctly. You can then use the results of the execution to execute blockchain operations. We plan not to allow the code to do actual blockchain transfers because it’s quite dangerous as the DAO thing (sic) has proven. We want to implement a normal distributed computing approach because these things were tested before the blockchain. People tried to do it this way, when we had several computers that did the same thing. They would execute the same code, and they would just compare the results of the execution, and then you’d use it. So I think that can be realized on the blockchain too, so that is what we are going to do. There was a project like that by the Ripple team of coders. I don’t know the current status, but probably it’s not really prosperous at this stage. But, I think it’s a valid approach that we want to pursue and see how far it can take us.”

MYCO: “So, kind of a similar question that I was asking Rob there at the end… I didn’t get in on the ICO; I didn’t know about it. I’m listening to all the new features that you’re adding to the whole cryptocurrency space here. I think that’s great. I’m not sure if I can specifically profit off of those if I invest in the Waves token. Maybe it might not be your concern at this point what the price of the Waves token is; you might be more concerned about getting things done and getting stuff out there. If there is an opportunity for me to buy Waves now, and for that token to go up in value… Do you have any comments about what might make the token go up in value? What would cause a demand on the Waves token, with your new functionality that you’re adding?”

SASHA: “It’s a network token. You can’t do any operations on the Wavesplatform without the native token. So at this stage you can’t have an open blockchain platform without a native token. It’s just very hard to do that. So there will be a demand for the Waves token; that is for sure. If the functionality is there, if people use it, the Waves token is going to cost a lot really as there is going to be some demand. I don’t want to predict the price or do any projections because it’s kind of illegal, yea? But I think there is going to be some valid demand if all the features are there and the Wavesplatform is working properly. We can really have a very pricy token, yea.”

MYCO: “What I think has been currently effecting the price, partly, there was a lot of money invested in the ICO, so that set a high bar. People are waiting on development right now and some people are not used to the way software development works. There can be unforeseen stuff that comes up and delays things. So, they’re getting impatient with the pace of development. I think because they invested and are now very impatient to get a return on that, I think that’s kind of the main factor.”

SASHA: “It’s not a matter of a year; it’s a matter of weeks. So, have a little patience. What fuels the growth of tokens at exchanges is scarcity. When you have a smaller ICO, it’s rather easy to have a little bump. When you have a very big ICO, the token won’t move for a while because everyone who wanted to buy it has already done it. So what fuels the price is the scarcity. If someone comes later and they can’t buy; he buys from those who bought before. But in this case, everyone who wanted to buy did that. So you have to wait a little and of course, it’s just a matter of time until the price will increase. So, have a little patience guys.“

MYCO: “Yea what we need is something that causes scarcity, which will come from the functionality that you’re developing.”

SASHA: “Yes. I don’t really care about the price. What I really care about is the functionality and the way it actually works. We have to have all the features there. I don’t care about the price at all actually because I know the price will reflect the developments and the progress of the functionality. If we have all the features it will be reflected in the price. That’s for sure.”

MYCO: “Has it been distracting how some people are very demanding about updates and that kind of stuff?”

SASHA: “No, no, I’ve gotten used to it. Ok, I was wrong with some projections, about like, ‘Ok, we’re going to be launching this in a week,’ and something always comes up. I will be more careful about this in the future. So, it was a good experience for me, and I’m totally fine with it; you learn as you go. In the future I’ll be making more balanced projections about what we’re going to have soon. In this case, at the moment, I think we are fine. We are testing the network now; we are doing some stress tests. Everything seems to be fine more or less. We had some bugs, but we fixed them. We are coding the assets. Next week, the stress test is ready (finished). We’ll take a look at the stage of our assets coding and if it’s fine we can also launch the assets on the test-net for a while. Then we can release the public nodes and have people install the nodes and mine. The network will become properly decentralized. It will be the proper launch of the Waves network. So it’s a matter of weeks. We are working hard on this. There are always some delays; we’re not the only one’s who run into some obstacles. But it’s a matter of weeks. So soon, we’ll have all the functionality that we wanted to implement working.”

MYCO: “Is there any way that people in the community can help with either testing or maybe advertising for you? Passing on information about it? What can we do to help?”

SASHA: “They’re helping out a lot because people are testing the network now. We have some very cool testers who are probing the network pushing for some interesting bugs that we overlooked. People are really helpful. So we are really grateful to the people in our community, for all their work, and we’re trying to be as open as possible. In this area, you have to work with people in order to succeed. It is a community-based project so you have to work with people. You don’t work against people; you don’t compete. The less competition you have, the better. Everyone is in the same boat. This project is really community based – it’s a grassroots project. We are really grateful to our community for all their support and all their help. Of course, not everyone is happy it’s totally fine. People that are unhappy motivate us and make us move faster. If not for some trolling, we could just take so much time for development, but you understand that you need to move further because you can lose momentum, and that can be pretty bad. You need to issue code which is going to be secure, but at the same time you have to do it fast. You have to find some balance. If you are going to be coding for a month, and wait until everything is perfectly fine, you won’t succeed. You need to have some dynamics here; we try to combine those.”

MYCO: “That’s all the questions I have.”

TRYTOSTOPME: “I really can’t stress how much we appreciate you coming down to talk with us Sasha; it’s really a treat.”

SASHA: “It’s totally fine. If you ask me again, I’ll be there. So goodnight, have a nice evening and thank you guys. See you later guys.”

[Wrap up.]